Featuring a Sean Tucker from AGC Partners, this episode discusses a new wave of DevOps, developer led tooling, adoption waves driven by necessity, and the cloud and edge purchase realities of telco in a world of 5g.
Announcer: Welcome to the Cloudify Tech Talk Podcast, taking a deeper dive into all things, DevOps, all things, toolchains, all things, automation, and all things orchestration.
Nati: So thank you, Jonny and hi Sean, happy to have you at the Cloudify Tech Talk podcast and we’re now here to discuss the new wave of DevOps and Sean, you’ve been reading a very interesting article that I’ve been using quite extensively to be honest here and even covering kind of extensively the reason for that trend, but maybe let’s start with a quick introduction to yourself and to the work that you’re doing at AGC, which is not kind of an analyst terms. Why don’t you start with that?
Sean: Perfect. Thanks a lot, Nati. So my name is Sean Tucker from AGC partners. We’re a middle-market investment bank focused on growth technologies, specifically B2B software and in this case, we’re talking about the infrastructure side and DevOps and part of what we do is published research as sector experts within our specific segments of the BB software landscape and that is how our organization is structured, is we are structured by sectors at the partner level and I cover, again, in this case DevOps and we’ll talk a bit about that in this report, but that really extends from dev tooling to sort of IT operations and other infrastructure technologies. So where I’d like to start is just at a very high level here. I think DevOps is a broadly used term. It’s an old term, and it began over 10 years ago when organizations realized that the IT side of the organization and the development side of the organization were two siloed and that hinder both collaboration and delivery speed of applications and so that issue drove what we call the initial adoption wave of DevOps, which focused primarily on really collaboration tools around the development life cycle and allowed more agile delivery and better communication among IT teams and development teams and what we believe we are now is sort of the next wave of adoption, which is quite different because the initial way was driven by the need to be more efficient and the need to be faster at delivering applications and that was one of, I would say more convenience than one of necessity actually.
Whereas today, the recent advancements in IP architectures and cloud made of environments, that being sort of multicloud environments the edge and microservices, et cetera has really now made this next wave a necessity where people need to, and organizations need to adopt, develop DevOps methodologies in order to modernize and keep up with their sort of the infrastructure side of the organization, because what cloud-native technologies is doing is driving a lot of automation when it comes to application deployment and infrastructure provisioning and this wave is one in which without DevOps methodologies, you really cannot have these technologies and so it’s an adoption wave that’s driven by necessity and with the advent of 5G and the edge, really what started 10 years ago is a collaborative mindset and one built around agile is now being applied to the way telcos are thinking about the edge and 5G networks and as well as how modern software environments are built with a developer mindset. So it’s almost moving away from just the generic DevOps term and more to sort of developer-led tooling, even if that sits on the operation side of the organization. Everything is now built and connected to really the start of the application build and it’s all a circle similar in the way that it operates.
So as part of that, where a specific example is, we see that on the DevSecOps side and really the explosion in DevSecOps M&A, but also DevSecOps solutions and vendors are now pointed toward delivering security solutions that are embedded and continuous within the application development life cycle versus something that is applied to the application or IT environment post-development and that’s a perfect example of what’s happening across the entire application lifecycle. So that again from an operation standpoint could be pointed out in AI ops, which is really trying to take logging and monitoring metrics and deliver that back to engineers to provide actual data where they can build that information into the next release or next application build. So we’re seeing it across the entire stack where now it’s not just about communicating and collaborating between IT and development, but it’s communicating, collaborating between IT development security and making those processes continuous.
Nati: So maybe one point to touch on what you just described, you mentioned that the previous wave of DevOps was driven by this culture move and ability to break the walls between development and operation and kind of drive agility and this new wave is driven by necessity, I think this is a keyword. Basically I think what stands behind that keyword is that if you think about this AI ops and you think about the Edge and 5G, I think what I’m hearing is that those types of [inaudible 07:11] cannot be done without it as opposed; so it’s not just an optimization or making things more efficient there’s no way you could manage things at that scale and that complexity without it and that’s why you’re saying that it’s driven by necessity as opposed to the previous way, is that a good summary?
Sean: Yeah, that’s how we view it. This is now not a point of convenience and being sort of ahead of the curve and being advanced in your thinking, as it comes to agile delivery of software applications, and really with everything is code, infrastructure is code and cloud native environments, your now in a position as an organization where you have to have these DevOps methodologies entrenched into all sides and the sort of circular motion that the application life cycle is and without that, the scale and speed at which applications are delivered in these environments is just not something that can be orchestrated and managed in a manual way. It needs to be done with technology.
Nati: Yeah and that’s a great segue to your last point about the the trends which is the non-tech business joining during the game, if you would like, which kind of interesting in my view. Andy Jassy, the CEO of AWS or Amazon was actually referring to it in his latest reinvent event where he mentioned that right now, only 4% of the IP budget is spent on public cloud and that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s 4% of the IT budget, not necessarily workloads. So just to be accurate here, which kind of I think touches in a different direction into what you’re referring to as non-tech industries and so maybe you could elaborate a little bit more about what those non-tech industries are, why are we seeing their adoption of DevOps kind of getting later in that type of industries?
Sean: Yes, exactly right. So really non-tech industries, which makes up still the majority of the market here, I would say in a lot of cases missed out on the initial adoption wave, but because the forces that are behind this next adoption wave are really, again, going back to your comment, one of necessity if you want to deliver a modern application environment, we believe that ultimately they’re not going to, it’s not going to happen necessarily quickly, but the non-tech industries are going to be the long-term growth drivers for this space and while the tech industries are certainly the initial drivers, and that’s where we are right now, we believe that it’s important to note that non-tech and legacy application environments within those non-tech industries are going to continue to spend trillions on digital transformation and as they go through that transformation, they’re going to need to adopt these more advanced DevOps methodologies as it pertains to delivering and updating applications.
Nati: How are those industries are different in their way of using DevOps than I would say the previous way, those quote-unquote are also referred to as born in cloud type of companies?
Sean: Yes, well, many of them are sitting on still today 30 year old lines of code where the original developers are no longer a 20-year-old curve where the original developers are no longer actually at the company itself and there’s a lack of understanding and ability to manage that code base and there are ways to modernize the legacy application, but ultimately as they move to compete with the technology vendors, ultimately when it comes to delivering products such as financial applications or retail applications they’re going to be moving to an environment which is cloud-native, and going to need to be following the tech industry closely here in their adoption of these methodologies.
Nati: This is great. In terms of another trend that you’re mentioning is the VSMPs and the value stream management platforms, and why they’re evolving. Can you elaborate what is VSMP, and why this term has been born in this new wave?
Sean: Yes, absolutely. So look, I think as we went through this initial wave, what was happening is that there was better collaboration. There was a more agile approach to delivering applications, but there was really an inability to manage and understand of those methodologies that were adopted and all those tools and products that were purchased there, what was the value that they were delivering and how can we get a holistic view of what now is a much more connected value stream? And that’s where this space really came from is, well, we need to have actionable insights and a holistic view, a platform-centric view of what’s going on now that all of the pieces in the application life cycle are connected and where do we need to take action, where do we need to improve tooling and this space is really trying to bring everything together and it creates really a whole new layer or wrapper around the DevOps and application life cycle, at least how we see it. It’s still early days where there aren’t a ton of independent vendors that are at scale, but we do think that it’s an incredibly important new market and it’s delivering back to basically the decision-makers, what their application life cycle looks like, and what is good or bad, and how can they improve it and really understand the analytic side of everything that’s going on and how they can derive insights from that as well as improve the overall value stream as it pertains to the application life cycle.
Nati: So you mentioned that we now see the need to do, I think you’ve mentioned two things that I captured. One of them is the need for kind of refers around the tools that we’re using right now and second, it’s the analytics that will give us a bit more insights. That’s kind of say the two main items that took from what that value stream management platform would mean. In terms of the wrappers, right now again, just to make sure that everyone is following what we’re discussing here right now, the normal, I would say way of doing DevOps today is called the tool chain in which you’re using Ansible at some point, and using Terraform at another point to run the infrastructure and using Kubernetes to do other things and basically they come together at the pipeline, at the CACD pipeline that’s kind of where they coming together. The issue with that, from what I’m hearing here and in general, is that you very quickly lose sight of what’s going on when you work in that way.
So as long as the complexity of the infrastructure and the application is within reason that still works, but as we start to get into this more complex cases, which is one driven by those complex organization that has the steady 30 years legacy code, but also new type of workload that we’re talking about right now, which is completely more complex, like the AI ops and the edge and the 5G taking a toolchain approach and applying it into those types of environments, you can get lost very quickly, lose control, lose site of what’s going on here and that’s part of the reasons why there is a drive towards connecting those silos into a more platform approach versus the toolchain approach that previously is been used. Is that a good summary of, I think what value stream management platform is all about?
Sean: Yes, exactly. And I think one important point on this is there are opinions in the market that the toolchain is going to consolidate into a few very large end to end vendors. When the reality is, if you look at any software environment, usually there are a ton of disparate tools being used, and we believe that that toolchain is going to remain incredibly complex and potentially even grow, that won’t change. But what value stream management helps you do is understand that toolchain of better and bring it together in a single view using deep technologies like AI and analytics to drive insights.
Nati: Excellent. This is actually an important point, I want to kind of a double click on that. So when people hear the word platform, especially if you’re a DevOps guys, you kind of remember the old days of application server, at least for me and other things that are a good example for an NHL system, because everything is centralized and having things centralized means less agile, where the whole trend towards microservices and toolchain was really spreading the responsibility in many ways into discreet functions and having each function doing what it’s good for and that fit well with the agile mentality and thinking. What you’re basically saying, is that in this too, if you’re like a version of what value stream management platform is, is that there is the I’m assuming gardener view, which is consolidation, platform kind of in the old way of thinking and you’re basically saying it’s going to be more of an overlay. It’s an additional tool that will provide an additional, if you like, perspective into the system, but it will come at expense of the use of the tools and the best of breed approach that we’re accustomed to. It’s not going to be like, we’re going to end up with two or three big systems that everyone is now going to standardize on. Those platforms will come along with those other tool chain and as an overlay, if you’d like, an optional overlay to provide another perspective that is missing right now. Is that what you are saying?
Sean: Yes, exactly right. I mean, there are private equity firms doing roll-ups in the tool chain space and trying to deliver end to end solutions, which would be a successful strategy, but the reality of software environments today is not that and we don’t believe that that’s going to change and that developers like to use what they like to use and as new tools come out, they’re going to adopt new tools and it will continue to be a very complex disparate tool chain.
Nati: This is very important. Okay. Personally, I think sympathize more with the origin description of the terms being someone who is anti-centralization, if you’d like, kind of guy. So maybe that’s a good segue to kind of the next topic of one of the things that that you’re covering in the report which is if you think about DevSecOps and I look also and AI ops and all those domain automation, I look at that and I’m saying, what is happening right now here? We thought that everything is going to be Terraform and at some point it looks like we’re going through this consolidation and now all of a sudden we started to spread again into different types of automation, different types of companies that are doing special automation on different domains and we are also mentioning the piece. So we’re kind of not, I mean, going far from any consolidation, we’re going to very domain-specific automations and any domain is going to be specialized on its own domain. There are two questions that I wanted to ask you on that, one, why is that happening? And the second one, why there’s a difference between doing DevSecOps and AI Ops and infrastructure automation in your view?
Sean: Well, I think at a very high level, these are really hard problems to solve and when you look at DevSecOps, or you look at just security in general, where it came from, what sort of a environment where you had very big vendors kind of being your single security solution for the entire organization and they realized very quickly that that didn’t work and you had very quickly organizations buying many, many, many security products and probably too many because they were trying to solve specific pain points. The same logic applies here. The issues that DevSecOps is trying to solve is that the traditional security solutions and application security were happening sort of at the end of the life cycle and didn’t take into account the sort of code level vulnerability or the software supply chain integrity and now you need to deliver specific security solutions into the development part of the life cycle, as well as continuous security solutions as that application is inevitably updated and delivery speed continues to increase. So what’s happened is that this sort of legacy security vendors are not capable of delivering products into the category. The big winners have been the cloud security vendors because they can adapt their solutions more easily to the new world of DevSecOps and you have clear winners already in the category, but you can see at specific layers whether it’s for news management or others, there are very pointed, high value, security acquisitions happening across the board from primarily ops vendors, as well as dev vendors, because no one’s really sure who’s going to be, or I guess all sides want to play in this space.
So you’ve got traditional Dev vendors entering the market, you have Ops vendors entering the market and we’ve got a slide on this here. So you’ve got sort of the DevOps players like Get Lab buying a few DevSecOps solutions. You have VMware doing the same from the Ops side, and you have Cisco, that’s kind of gone through the life cycle of Ops, DevOps, DevSecOps and then you have Palo Alto that’s done a number of acquisitions in this space who are primarily a security vendor and so what’s clear, is there a lot of individual solutions that are solving specific pain points as it pertains to application security and embedding that into the application life cycle, and whether you’re a development vendor or an Ops vender, they’re really in this space is no sort of clear view on who should be delivering these solutions and I think there will continue to be a number of acquisitions in this space in the next few years. I think if you look at this chart, at the bottom here, you can probably look back to 2015 as some of the first DevSecOps deals, but what’s happened in 2020 and even at the beginning of 2021, we’ve seen a number of these is that this is going to be a space that sees a significant increase in (…) as large venders from all sides really start to deliver security solutions into the application life cycle.
Nati: Yes and interestingly enough, we’ve seen [inaudible 25:57] buying persona and that’s also, I think, I’m not sure it is already mentioned here and authentic in the report. It’s probably happened after we wrote it like a very recent acquisition on that space, but I noticed by the way on the DevSecOps, the checkpoint is not mentioned here at least as an active player, which is interesting. So in terms of a DevSecOps, do you think that Palo Alto versus checkpoint, Palo Alto is kind of taking the lead here through the segregation?
Sean: Yes, I mean, they’ve been more aggressive. I think that there’s also some marketing going on where there are security vendors delivering DevSecOps solutions that maybe aren’t fully productized yet and ready for these cloud native environments and sort of true DevOps enabled environments. But look, I think that there’s going to be a major push from most cloud security vendors into this market and that’s clear, anyone that’s not a cloud security vendor is looking from the outside in, and that they’re behind, but this is going to be the major space and this is going to be how, at least the origins of how security is delivered within the enterprise.
Nati: Right and that puts me maybe to the two next topics. One of them is how that fits into the multi-cloud strategy kind of cloud transformation as we all call it digital transformation and second, it’s the 5G kind of world. Let’s start with maybe with the digital transformation and multi-cloud. So what I’m saying is, I think we’ve seen I call it two families of approaches. One of them is private cloud-centric, meaning that you have the DMR of the guys that are driving multi-cloud towards, and they have their articles, if you like hence reaching out towards cloud and providing you the ability to take pieces of the private cloud entities into the public cloud, but very gradual and very slowly, very, very, very, very, very BMR centric. But then you have the public cloud-centric approach in which the likes of Amazon and Azure and potentially Google, but in a kind of a different angle are sending their octopus if you like hands and reaching out into the private data center, using Output and Azure Stack and Google have which again, kind of a different animal here, but it’s a similar idea. What do you think about those two waves? Who’s going to win that? Is it the public centric approach or the [inaudible 29:08] approach, which is more private cloud-centric approach. First of all, do you agree with what I just said, or do you see it differently?
Sean: No, I think generally we agree, I think it’s hard to say one approach is going to win over the other in that both are, we believe very big markets and there isn’t going to be a move strict we to public cloud environments, which means that hybrid environments going to, in our opinion, proliferate especially with sort of 5G and sort of Telco Networks moving to an adopting sort of the same DevOps methodologies and looking at their world in a very similar way. So I don’t think that we comment on what approach has come to be the winner, but we do believe that the sort of public cloud only approach is not going to be the future private and hybrid environments is going to remain a big part of this market going forward.
Nati: Yes and I was referring also to what I’m starting to see as the use of outpost and Azure Stack and Google [inaudible 30:41] as a way to reach out into the data center from the public cloud. And from that respect, what I’m kind of seeing there is that move towards public cloud realizing that reality that you mentioned that those large organizations are not going to move from the data center anytime soon. So it’s going to be a hybrid for a while, at least and then they’re trying to kind of send their, again, they are 2% in terms of analogy into the data center and take pieces of the mail over there and kind of bring it into their public clouds gradually. What do you think would be the adoption of that approach? Like the outpost and Azure Stack as a mean towards the transformation?
Sean: Look, I think that it will be a very successful approach and whether there’s a rapid sort of shift to public cloud environments, or that happens over time. I think that matters less. It’s about sort of landing in the organization and being able to reach into the data center and slowly provide those public cloud services and what I can say is that I think that the approach as a way to go to market and acquire a larger market share for AWS is going to be a very successful one. It’s the speed at which they’re able to deliver those public cloud services. I think it’s a separate question that time will tell and these organizations don’t typically move very fast when it comes to these sort of digital transformation moves, but there’s so much span that if they can provide that roadmap with trillions of dollars at this point spent and often wasted on digital transformation. There’s clearly the priorities are in the right place and I think the go to market will be successful at being able to succeed.
Nati: Yes, it’s becoming a bit boring because I tend to agree with you all the time, but we tend to agree on this as well. And coming from, I would say a lot of that VMR background, I actually think that there’s high chance that the agility of the cloud and the speed in which AWS is moving and reaching out into the data center will prevail at the end. That’s my personal opinion. But now that brings me to the next topic, which is I found it quite inspiring when I read your report and kind of drove it to a lot of this discussion that you kind of talked on 5G in the context of DevOps, that’s not very common. What brought you to then write that piece and kind of connect it to what was kind of the background behind it?
Sean: Well, 5G really allows Telcos to finally leverage software defined networks because of the speed of 5G networks and as they move to sort of fully software defined networks, they have a blueprint, if you will, as to how to adopt and deliver the same DevOps principles to edge computing and data processing and so we believe that sort of the blueprint is laid out for them while 5G is the enabler for actually executing on that. So as sort of the the edge grows and a lot of the processing is happening at the source and the speed of those software-defined networks is significantly improved, all of a sudden you need to use technology to manage that and orchestrate that. So really we see 5G as a big playing a key role as the title here says in that process and we’ll see what happens with the Telcos, but I think this is the obvious move for that.
Nati: In that context I know that in previous years when we said Telcos, it was kind of a big no-no for investors and they kind of didn’t want to invest in that space. Do you think that 5G changes that dynamics?
Sean: It could, I think that there’s probably more interest in still some of the software technologies that are delivered around Telcos. I think, ultimately the Telcos have been a really tough end market, but as this becomes their new reality, their purchasing behavior is going to change and what they need to deliver to ultimately their end customers to keep up, they’re going to have to adopt this. So as you look at sort of Telco related technologies that are enablers to delivering on this blueprint, I think there’s a lot of interest there from investors today and I think that the spend behavior, which at points in time historically has been very painful when it comes to Telcos has already changed and 5Gs and then going back to the beginning of the call, necessity is change.
Nati: Necessity meaning that there is no, because of the complexity of the network, because of someone told me that in order to run 5G at the latency that it’s needed, the number of cells that you have to, meaning edge point would need to increase almost by a factor of 20 to cover the network of the slate that is needed and things in that line. So those are all huge numbers that the necessity that I think you’re talking about, but we also seeing public cloud getting into that game. Explain that to me, why there’s an interest by public cloud, into all these Telcos and they’re establishing, I know that from close hand that Amazon had established their own Telco team and the growing quite extensively there and planning a big show at MWC and we’ve seen Microsoft starting to do some acquisition that space with meta switch and a freedom and a special group there and we’ve seen Google doing that, is that the land grabbing kind of war, or there’s something more into it?
Sean: I think the fundamentals of that is that this is their world and so now that these are becoming software defined, that works their world as software businesses, they’re able to all of a sudden take a piece of what is a huge market and so of course, it’s very interesting to Amazon or Google. The reality is that they may be better at executing on this than a traditional Telco and so now that the overall environment has changed they’re going to be their new competitor. They fundamentally are new competitors in the market and obviously as Titans within the technology industry, they have the cash to go address this new market through acquisition, or just organic growth.
Nati: Yes and I kind of read the first line of what you’re describing here and again, this was inspiring to me, and I kind of experienced that in the past few months, as we’ve worked on the 5G use case with AWS, and this is public domain. So I’ll share it with the audience the blog post around it. When we started that project I didn’t thought about it in the terms that I’m going to describe right now, like in terms of agile, in terms of DevOps, if you think about 5G, you think about network, you think about configuration, day to operation, all those types of things. But when we analyze back what made it successful and how we were able within groups that were working across different continents between Israel, India, and US, what made it successful? How come we were able to launch new features and methods of hours and days with very high degree of the coupling between the teams where previously, like in two years ago, I’ve done the exact same thing with a batch of care and in six, it took us six months to deliver a fraction of what we’ve done here in just two or three weeks in a much more complex environment. When I analyze that back, I came back to that report and I said, but this is not, this is actually working. We use Lamda services to call the underlying services. We use pipelines to deliver the configuration, none of this is known as at CEO three GPP on any of those standard stocks that you would see, and a lot of those Telco diagram and it actually delivered much better than any of that and proven to be very efficient and we use Kubernetes across the stack and everything was cloud native.
So all those things actually deliver on its promise and I found it to be quite surprising how far you could go with that and how far that impart is. That kind of brings me to the question of Netflix versus Blockbuster. I think in the context of the media companies, Netflix was realizing exactly what I was describing right now and typically the full public cloud type of approach or cloud approach or cloud-native approach as you would call it, today versus blockbuster, where we’re trying to do something in the middle and failed. How many of that, first of all, do you agree with that analogy? Are we seeing the same thing here that telcos are in that dilemma of being Blockbuster versus Netflix?
Sean: So basically, I don’t know where we end up at the end of this, but I do believe, and I don’t know whether the Telcos will be the Blockbuster, but I do believe the players like AWS are going to have a big piece of this pie at the end of the day and they’re going to be able to potentially in this particular market be quicker to market and faster to deliver these this type of sort of DevOps environment and these types of software defined networks. So I do think that the Telcos are at, this is a major threat to them, but it’s also an opportunity for them to deliver and monetize their existing customers and so I think that the market is overall it’s growing, but I also believe that this is the AWS ‘s of the world are huge threats to their core business.
Nati: So when you speak about necessity, I think that’s another angle of necessity, meaning the competitive landscape. So if you don’t move fast and adopt those things, you’re probably going to be the Blockbuster and if you do, then you’re probably going to be the Netflix. As we all know, it’s going to be a few of them that it’s going to be able to be the Netflix and probably the majority is going to be blockbuster, but that’s another dimension for the necessity, I think you mentioned, it’s not just about the complexity of the stock and the technology and the need for automation at the technical level. It’s also the necessity from a business perspective, because if you don’t do those things, if you don’t look to the cloud and adopt those practices and agile practices, you’re probably going to end up being in Blockbuster. We want to wrap up right now. I mean, this is a fascinating discussion, and I think I can continue that discussion for hours, but I’m going to spare that from our audience here and try to maybe wrap up here. So Sean, you’ve been working on these reports, tell me when do you expect to see the light of the day in there? I’m assuming it’s going to be very soon.
Sean: Yes, so next Monday, we’ll be out to the world and it will be available for obviously you and your audience to view if they would like.
Nati: Excellent. So first of all, I recommend, I highly recommend reading Sean’s report. I think it’s it’s an excellent report and it’s very detailed and especially if you’re entrepreneurial, you’ll find a lot of details there that is correlating between the technology trend, but also the business trends in terms of MNA and potential markets etc. This is kind of an angle that you don’t commonly see and definitely in the Gardner type of reports and for entrepreneurs are I found it to be very, very useful and also maybe one thing to note about it is that from what I’ve seen it does cover kind of all those different segments that I think we mentioned in the call itself. So if I summarize that it’s the ability of an organization to actually adopt more cloud native, we’re talking also about the move towards small DevSecOps and value stream management platform, which is kind of taking a higher level of the stack and consolidating some of the DevOps tools.
We also discussed the entrance of what do you call the non-tech businesses into DevOps and the fact that this is actually the biggest market if I kind of take NDJC quote there from from reinvent the 4% comment that I mentioned earlier about the difference in budget and at the end, they were talking about the entrance also to very conservative area like 5G and we’re actually starting to see the sign of it already taking place here. We also discussed the public cloud adoption and how that affects the digital transformation. Is that going to be centered around private cloud? Is that going to be the public cloud are going to send their octopus hands into the private data centers and who’s going to win, they’re not clear yet, but definitely with the speed in which Amazon is running that space, they have a good shot there and so I think that’s kind of the main topics and we kind of covered a lot of ground here. Sean, so I wanted to thank you very much for sharing with us your insights and hopefully the report and it’s been fascinating for me again, to have this discussion. So thank you very much.
Sean: No, thank you and obviously if anybody has questions, feel free to reach out to me and I would love to have a chat directly.
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